# Examples of negative balances **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [October 4, 2025, 10:20am UTC](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/examples-of-negative-balances/638 "2025-10-04T10:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ooker](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex003/user_avatar/forum.plaintextaccounting.org/ooker/32/251_2.png) [@Ooker](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/u/Ooker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 10:20am UTC](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/examples-of-negative-balances/638/1 "2025-10-04T10:20:26Z")
As a newcomer, [signed number convention](https://plaintextaccounting.org/FAQ#where-are-debits-and-credits) is confusing sometimes. It can mean in different ways: - Positive means what you own, negative means what you own - Positive means inflow (debit), negative means outflow (credit) I'd argue that even when a user knows that PTA programs use the second meaning, they can still occasionally confused it to the first one. So I would like to gather some examples regarding negative balances, especially the ones that are counter-intuitive (i.e. one can easily use the wrong interpretation) or can illustrate usages or consequences that are helpful to know. Here is my example. I hope it's correct. ```auto account revenues ; type:R account debt ; type:L 2025-09-29 saving account interest received revenues:interest -1000 assets:bank:savings 1000 2025-09-29 debt interest paid debt:credit:card:interest -2000 debt:credit:card 2000 ``` ---
**Author:** ![simonmic](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex003/user_avatar/forum.plaintextaccounting.org/simonmic/32/1_2.png) [@simonmic](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/u/simonmic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 8:29pm UTC](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/examples-of-negative-balances/638/2 "2025-10-04T20:29:29Z")
> As a newcomer, [signed number convention](https://plaintextaccounting.org/FAQ#where-are-debits-and-credits) is confusing sometimes. It can mean in different ways: > > - Positive means what you own, negative means what you own > - Positive means inflow (debit), negative means outflow (credit) > > I'd argue that even when a user knows that PTA programs use the second meaning, they can still occasionally confused it to the first one. One should also clarify that the second means inflow/outflow to an account, and different types of accounts have different meanings/effects on personal wealth. (Ie the rule is not "positive means an inflow to me".) > So I would like to gather some examples regarding negative balances, especially the ones that are counter-intuitive (i.e. one can easily use the wrong interpretation) or can illustrate usages or consequences that are helpful to know. +1. It's worth also surveying the existing docs and examples, on the PTA site also, for anything similar to build on or consolidate. > Here is my example. I hope it's correct. > > ```auto > account revenues ; type:R > account debt ; type:L > > 2025-09-29 saving account interest received > revenues:interest -1000 > assets:bank:savings 1000 > > ``` Looks good. > 2025-09-29 debt interest paid > debt:credit:card:interest -2000 > debt:credit:card 2000 > > ```auto > > ``` It's hard to understand what this one means ? ---
**Author:** ![Ooker](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex003/user_avatar/forum.plaintextaccounting.org/ooker/32/251_2.png) [@Ooker](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/u/Ooker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 3:33am UTC](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/examples-of-negative-balances/638/3 "2025-10-07T03:33:54Z")
> [@simonmic](#): > > It's worth also surveying the existing docs and examples, on the PTA site also, for anything similar to build on or consolidate. Can you give the links to the examples? I don't see it anywhere > [@](#): > > ```auto > 2025-09-29 debt interest paid > debt:credit:card:interest -2000 > debt:credit:card 2000 > > ``` I mean when you have loan interest in credit card, it automatically be a part of the loan. For example, say your current loan is 10000, and the interest for that is 2000, then your new loan is 12000. Does that make sense? Btw, I see a related discussion here: [Toward a more intuitive input syntax for plain text accounting](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/toward-a-more-intuitive-input-syntax-for-plain-text-accounting/197) ---
**Author:** ![simonmic](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex003/user_avatar/forum.plaintextaccounting.org/simonmic/32/1_2.png) [@simonmic](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/u/simonmic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2025, 6:28am UTC](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/examples-of-negative-balances/638/4 "2025-10-07T06:28:53Z")
I had in mind place like these, I suspect there are example journal entries around there but I haven't looked through them: - [https://plaintextaccounting.org/Cookbook#accounting-situations](https://plaintextaccounting.org/Cookbook#accounting-situations) - [https://hledger.org/doc.html#cookbook-accounting-tasks](https://hledger.org/doc.html#cookbook-accounting-tasks) - [https://hledger.org/doc.html#examples](https://hledger.org/doc.html#examples) Here's what I'd expect as a common credit card payment entry: ```auto 2025-09-29 debt interest paid assets:bank:checking -2000 liabilities:bank:credit card 2000 ``` I wouldn't track the interest part of a credit card balance separately. You'll already know the interest paid from the total of expenses:interest. But, YMMV! ---
**Author:** ![shlewislee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@shlewislee](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/u/shlewislee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2025, 7:33am UTC](https://forum.plaintextaccounting.org/t/examples-of-negative-balances/638/5 "2025-10-10T07:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > ```auto > 2025-09-29 debt interest paid > debt:credit:card:interest -2000 > debt:credit:card 2000 > > ``` > > I mean when you have loan interest in credit card, it automatically be a part of the loan. For example, say your current loan is 10000, and the interest for that is 2000, then your new loan is 12000. Does that make sense? `debt:credit:card` already has `:interest` as its child therefore moving between them is somewhat redundant. You can see that `:interest` is already part of the loan (use `-t` flag and you'll see it for yourself). Not only that, it loses critical information that the 2k in under the `debt:credit:card` is actually interest. You should do something like this: ```hledger 2025-01-01 Mastercard | Interest debt:credit:card:interest -2000 expenses:interest 2000 ``` And when you actually pay off the debt, ```hledger debt:credit:card:interest 2000 = 0 debt:credit:card 10000 = 0 assets:cash -12000 ```